- Part I - Scriptural Factors
- Part II - God's Will
- Part III - Free Will
- Part IV - Hidden Nature
Let's be clear. I do not believe that there is such thing as an "unanswered prayer." Every prayer is actually answered, but with three different answers: Yes, No, or Wait. Contrary to Marshall Brain, this is not an "optical illusion," but a legitimate idea that is observable in our daily lives. If someone asks us to tie their shoe for them, we either say:
- "Sure, I'll tie your shoe."
- "No. You should know how to tie your shoe by now. Your eighteen!"
- "Sure, I'll tie your shoe. Hold on though, I have to do this first."
Why is this idea somehow not applicable to a deity?
However, for my consistency purpose, I will referred to prayers being "not answered," because that is how Marshall Brain tends to word it.
I hope this series is beneficial to everyone. I hope it helps Christians further understand the nature of the situation, and I hope that it helps atheists to further understand what Christians mean when they use these defenses.
Sincerely,
Patrick Dunnevant
© P-Dunn's Apologetics 2008. All rights reserved.
25 comments:
cool
I think this is kind of silly. You're trying to make a coincidence an argument for a deity. It never ends.
But aren't you assuming exactly what has to be demonstrated, AC? Is it really coincidence?
What is really amazing, that most christians don't know is simply the fun FACT that there isn't a man, woman, or child that can properly translate the language(s) of anything written in that period. There are complete college courses available to try and decipher those languages and we have not yet succeeded. Since this is a fact, then that means that christians and religions alike have no idea what they are reading.
David,
What qualifications do you have to be able to make such a claim? To what extent have you researched the languages of Hebrew and Greek that have caused you to come to the conclusion that we still have no idea what the languages actually say?
Simply stated: where on the internet did you pick up that idea? Because, as usual, it's quite mistaken.
Apparently you don't have any qualifications either. If you read your history....the bible wasn't written in hebrew or greek. Scriptures were written originally in forms of a crude aramaic and some forms of early sanscrit...LATER to be translated in hebrew as they knew it at the time. They were never written greek because there were no such thing as revelations...or jesus at that time in greek history in the 10th century. Later the hebrew version was translated to latin, then to what knew as medievel or "old" english. Know your history before you start spouting scriptures that nobody knows anyway. The simple fact is these "great" scriptures have been translated numerous times over a span of over 5,000 years. Even a retard could tell you that we really have no idea what they actually said. That's a FACT!! Look up genius!
Here is your timeline:
staring at 4th century:
1st known Scriptures were written in torn, crude paper in a language we know as Old Syriac Aramaic. This Language evolved to Middle Syriac Aramaic and split into sanscrit. Then 2 cent. later it was translated to simply aramaic and then in early rewritten and translated to hebrew, THEN GREEK, then Coptic, and then Latin...from latin it evolved further into what we know of for that time into at least 50 other languages...those languages evolved into other languages...and so on and so on.
To this day we can't figure out Sanscrit let alone Old Syriac Aramaic.
So you're going to sit here with a straight face and tell me that none of the books of the Bible were written in Greek, and then call ME a retard?
Seriously?
Every single book of the New Testament was written in Koine Greek. Furthermore, have you ever heard of the Septuagint? Before even the New Testament came out, the Old Testament was translated into Greek, because that was the lingua franca of the Roman empire.
Furthermore, your idea that they were originally written in crude aramaic is also far against the scholarly consensus. They were once again later translated into Aramaic, and those translations have come to be known as the "Targums," but they were originally written in Hebrew.
You're entitled to your own opinion, David, but not to your own facts.
It is quite clear you didn't attend a college. I really don't care either way. The undisputed fact is we are all agnostic whether you believe it or not. In your own christian community you guys can't seem to agree on origins and translations. And everybody knows that religion is a multi-billion dollar business and it's only pertinent to your financial stability that people keep believing.
The quickest way to be a millionaire in this country is to start your own religion -L. Ron Hubbard.
Good luck spreading the gospel and trying to rationalize 900 year old men sailing on boats with 2 of every species (in the billions)and convincing people that some of those animal didn't eat other animals.
I'm currently attending college, and have taken several courses in relation to the Bible and religion, thank you very much.
Oh yes. The typical tactics of non-believers of changing the debate topic to something entirely different once you've realized you're incredibly misinformed, and asserting that the pastors of little podunk Fifteenth Bible Church in Nowhere, Idaho are only in it for the money. Sorry, David, but it won't work here.
Come back when you have real arguments, please.
Oh really... Then why did you say the Bible started in Hebrew and Greek? If you are in college (and not a theology school...they are only going to teach you what they want you to hear). You later stated that was not true and you agreed there were languages that came before Hebrew and Greek. Have you ever seen the original scripture dated several centuries before hebrew and greek were invented?
No you haven't. I have...it's an old brown piece of dried pulp with about 200-300 "words" on it. Out of those words we've been able to translate about 35 words. The whole basis of the Old Testament comes from this tattered piece of parchment and you expect intelligent people to believe some guys writing that we couldn't even translate 10% of? Written by a guy that didn't even know why the sun came up everyday? Didn't know what an atom was? didn't know what bacteria, disease, space, stars, or planets were? Didn't know why they breathed...or what oxygen or an atmosphere is. I'm a 35 year old developer with 2 masters degree, 1 in science, and 1 in social science.
I also have a show coming out on Comedy Central that brings insomniac and Religilous together. Guys like make all the comedy I need to fill this show. I'm surprised you haven't given me the "throw the clock parts out into space" bit yet.
The very fact that you're using terms like "original scripture," as if there is only one document, shows your blatant ignorance of Biblical studies. Our Old Testament comes from the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Septuagint, the Targums, and many other ancient sources. The DSSs contain almost 900 documents, many of them Biblical manuscripts. For you claim that only a single piece of parchment is the source for books written over thousands of years is patently ridiculous and false.
"Before Hebrew and Greek were invented?" What a laugh. Explain the existence of many manuscripts, even discounting Biblical ones, written in what are called "Classical Hebrew" and "Koine Greek." For example, how do you explain the writings of Cornelius Tacitus, such as the Annals, if Greek wasn't invented until after the time of the New Testament?
If you seriously have a show on Comedy Central (which I highly doubt. You have to earn the benefit of the doubt, as this is not only the internet, but you've shown yourself to be incredibly ignorant about the most basic things so far), then I must say, Comedy Central has sunk to a new low; the only thing funny about you is how wrong you are.
So I'm going to assume that you speak and read fluent hebrew and greek and you have read every word of what far less than intelligent people have written of what they think god told them to write. Is this correct?
I'm not fluent, no.
However, unlike many Christians, I often go back to the original language and translate it using lexicons to properly understand what the verse means.
I'm am curious. What made you become christian?
What type of christian are you?
Are you a catholic christian? Or the "Screw the catholic church" christian?
Who told you christianity was the religious sect to be in?
Why not Muslim? Or Jewish?
I initially became a Christian likely because I was raised in a very Christian environment. But through the process of becoming more rational and freethinking, I reexamined everything I believe, and now believe Christianity is true on the basis of the evidence.
I was raised Baptist, but I don't really care for denominations all that much. To me, it doesn't matter.
I am neither. I would insert my own category of being a "Protestant, but the Catholics are right about lots of things too and are still 'Christian'" Christian.
My parents initially told me. Now I'm telling myself for different reasons.
The evidence for Islam being true is not nearly as conclusive as Christianity. Furthermore, I think we have more than enough reason to believe that Jesus was the Messiah as proclaimed by the prophets, so Judaism in its current form is also invalid.
Since you are christian, you should familiar of the story Jesus.
Almost 800 years before the birth of jesus there was a very similar story told by the greeks feauturing a son of god born to a virgin mother and so on. However, 2000 years before that, there was the story of Horus.
1)Horus was the son of god (osirus)
2)Horus was born from a virgin mother(Isis)
3)Horus was born Dec. 25th
4)Horus was the savior
5)Horus was crucified
6)Horus was resurrected from the dead and was to come back and save humanity.
This sounds awfully familiar...doesn't it?
My question to you is...How come you don't believe in Horus? His story is exactly the same as jesus, only his was first. Shouldn't you give Horus a chance?
Yeah. I'm about to write a letter to Comedy Central and tell them about you.
If I didn't think you were completely ignorant before, I do now. I hope you know the theory of pagan influence on Christ is practically dead in academia...For good reasons...Let's go through each of your claims one by one:
1)Horus was the son of god (osirus)
But he wasn't the "only begotten son" of a monotheistic, triune God. This comparison hardly holds water, since in this respect, the very basic level of theology is completely antithetical to that of the polytheist Greeks.
2)Horus was born from a virgin mother(Isis)
Isis was a virgin? This seems unlikely, given Horus's actual birth story. You apparently lifted these claims from some place uncritically, and have likely never read any of the sources of information about Horus for yourself. If you had, you would find that Horus's father, Osiris, was beset by the titans and cut up into many pieces and scattered all around the world. Isis went and gathered all of the parts (with the exception of the penis, since that had been thrown in a river and eaten by fish), and put them all back together (with a substitute penis), had sex with his dead body and became pregnant with Horus.
Virgin birth, huh?
3)Horus was born Dec. 25th
Horus was born on the 31st day of the Egyptian month Khoiak. You have a 1 in 365 chance of that being December 25th.
But anyway, what does it matter? Where in the Bible does it say Jesus was born on December 25th?
4)Horus was the savior
Savior from what? From who? This claim is so vague that it is meaningless. Besides, the only titles ever attributed to Horus were "Great God," "Chief of the Powers," "Master of Heaven," and "Avenger of His Father."
5)Horus was crucified
There is no story of Horus ever dying at all, actually. Who do you think you're kidding? He is apparently merged with the sun god Ra, and certainly wasn't crucified.
6)Horus was resurrected from the dead and was to come back and save humanity.
Obviously not if he never died. You also keep throwing these terms out there..."save humanity..." Save them from what?
This sounds awfully familiar...doesn't it?
It only sounds familiar because stupid, gullible atheists like you constantly bombard my blog with these ridiculous claims, and I keep defeating them with actual research every time.
Tell me, what do your masters degrees tell you about how to research claims before making them? Huh?
First of all I'm not an Atheist. I'm an Agnostic...Just like you...and just like everybody else in world. (see latter blogs)
I don't have the ego to tell people there is a god...or there is not a god. People who claim such certainty think they are "special" like you. Your a 20 something college kid that doesn't know shit. Your lucky to get laid twice a year...but you probably consider that a miracle. The absolute, undisputed, and universal truth is:
WE DON'T KNOW!
The point I've been making since we have been blogging has been helped by you. We have been blogging back and forth, I would send you a fact...you would have an answer for it as what some pastor told you. There were a couple of times I just made up a "fact" and you answered it very defensively as if somehow it depended on your survival as a christian.
None of us know
*We can't even trust our own newspapers written today on current events in a language we do understand. Yet we believe, word for word, ancient languages that we barely understand.
I don't think you're one of those people that believes in the bible word for word...you know as I do..that would be complete insanity. Imagine how many insane people are preaching christianity on T.V., to our children.
I know that you've seen a christian preaching on T.V. and said "That guy is crazy!!"
First of all I'm not an Atheist. I'm an Agnostic...Just like you...and just like everybody else in world. (see latter blogs)
I don't have the ego to tell people there is a god...or there is not a god. People who claim such certainty think they are "special" like you. Your a 20 something college kid that doesn't know shit.
A 20-something who is apparently much more knowledgeable than someone who claims to be starting a show on Comedy Central about religion. I guess that's pretty comforting.
Your lucky to get laid twice a year...but you probably consider that a miracle. The absolute, undisputed, and universal truth is:
WE DON'T KNOW!
What's ironic, David, is that you claim that you "don't have the ego" to tell people one way or another whether there is a god or not, and then you have the nerve to tell me (not to mention every person in the entire world) that none of us know anything, and that we have a deluded opinion that we are somehow special. So do you have an ego or not, David?
The point I've been making since we have been blogging has been helped by you. We have been blogging back and forth, I would send you a fact...you would have an answer for it as what some pastor told you.
All my answers come from hard research and my own personal thought, David. Please stop putting me, and other believers, in the box of "He believes everything his pastor says," because it is simply not true.
There were a couple of times I just made up a "fact" and you answered it very defensively as if somehow it depended on your survival as a christian.
Oh, pleeeeaaaase. Yeah, you "made up facts." That's a clever way of covering your own incredibly poor arguments that you now realize are refuted. Sort of like the, "Oh yeah, I was just kidding." That won't work here either, David.
None of us know
*We can't even trust our own newspapers written today on current events in a language we do understand. Yet we believe, word for word, ancient languages that we barely understand.
We do understand them, David. That's the funny thing. We have a very good understanding of them.
I don't think you're one of those people that believes in the bible word for word...you know as I do..that would be complete insanity.
Imagine how many insane people are preaching christianity on T.V., to our children.
I know that you've seen a christian preaching on T.V. and said "That guy is crazy!!"
Calling such a belief "insane" or "crazy" would be demeaning to people who actually have real mental illness.
No, I don't believe I have. I've thought, "That guy is misguided," or "That guy is flat out wrong," but never, "That guy is crazy/insane."
In Ephesians 5:22-24 we find this: "Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything." I've never met a Christian woman who had a problem with this passage. Still looking for one.
I am a Christian woman and I actually don't agree with this. Why can't husbands "submit" to their wives? I have read the explanation following it, but I still don't agree with it. It just doesn't seem fair.
I would love some feedback.
P.S. Great job on the website! I was particularly interested in the section "Why is God Sexist?" because there are a lot of passages in the Bible about women that I don't agree with. I can't say I've necessarily changed my mind, but I'm in the process of reading the passages so I can see from different perspectives about the topic(s).
Hi Patrick. My name is Mark and I stumbled across your video response to:
Why does every intelligent Christian disobey Jesus?
As a brother in Christ, I have to say "WAY TO GO". Finally a rational response to Mr. Brain.
As far as david is concerned, I am sure I do not have to tell you but here goes anyway, YOU ABSOLUTELY ANNIHILATED THIS GUY!
2Ti 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
I found him rather amusing however boring as I myself have had the pleasure to refute ignoramuses many, many times and it just gets old.
It's always the same lame arguments. Well I definitely plan on bookmarking your blog and look forward to checking out all of your responses to Mr. Brain.
Oh yeah david if your reading this you got pawned pretty hard. Gonna be hard to come back after that rather dull dialogue you attempted to have with Patrick.
david, until you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and repent of your sins you will NEVER understand the mysteries of the bible no matter how hard you try.
God Bless
1Co 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
It doesn't say much about anybody's intelligence that would believe in any mythical man made delusion such as "christianity".
Genisis alone proves that the bible was completely made up by man. Do you know how many Priests, ministers, and preachers try so desperately to explain the creation and population of man by promoting incest and child sexual molestation?
There is a ton of books about Unicorns. How come you don't believe in Unicorns?
How come the first commandment isn't: Thou Shall Not Fuck Children?
(spare the ROD spoil child...eh?)
How Come not 1 of the commandments is: Thou Shall Not Rape?
How come in the original written texts of the bible there is no word or stories of the Devil. How come the devil was made up 1000 years after?
Which of the human species was Adam and Eve?
There is nothing in the bible about dinosaur bones, or atoms.
Before you christian retards go around calling people ignorant...just remember that you little lambs can't think for yourselves otherwise you wouldn't flock to such immorality such as christianity. Just admitting to being a christian sets your I.Q. at a level below average because you are so apt to fall for magical made-up stories.
Think about all the useless crap christians have bought just because somebody slapped a picture of jesus on it.
Think about how easy it is to kill a christian using your own delusion against you.
Christians are such tremendous idiots, that you christians argue way more with each other about the origin, dos and don'ts, and morality of your own delusions!!!
Christians cause more crime than any other delusional group in this country...including muslims.
Christianity is such an easy delusion. As a matter-of-fact, think about easy it was to get you to drive to church. Get you to sit in a chair for several hours. Then get you to give money to an invisible product. Promising you certainty because it was written in a book that other delusional groups can't agree on.
IT'S SO EASY!! You fucking dumb ASS!
Remember kids....having "Faith" means you never really have to explain why you believe your own bull-shit.
Jesus died...so you don't have to think... anymore.
Let me ask you this mr. P-Dunn... Do you think your delusional daddy would pay for you to go to Belmont University if you were muslim?
I don't think so.
Like I said christianity such an easy invisible product to sell to idiots.
Christianity is so easy...that the very next day...you can be Jewish.
Christianity has no evidence what-so-ever to back it up and would never stand-up in court of law.
Grow some pubes, get a mortgage, get laid....and Grow up! People like you are destroying this world with your anxious arrival of the "end days". "Scripture" doesn't mean anything, nada, zip, zilch and has no relevance with today, yesterday, tomorrow...or ever.
I know you are having trouble getting women...jesus ain't gonna help you.
I wish you could listen to yourselves...putting your hands up in the air...praying... it's like watching actors playing make believe. Think about close you could have been to being a scientologist. At least L. Ron Hubbard admitted to making the whole thing up.
Just recently the catholic church abolished hell and the devil. Isn't that the basis of christianity? Trying not to get into hell?
I don't understand why people will allow themselves to fall invisble certainty. You wouldn't buy a $30,000 car today that "prophecy" said would come soon...sometime in the near future...possibly when jesus comes back.
Look at the Mormons... not only did they fall for christianity, they fell for the bull-shit of a 14 year old kid, that convinced a whole retarded town, that an angel wrote a new bible on gold plates in a language called "reformed Egyptian". The plates magically disappeared...and now millions of people follow a completely made up doctrine, that BTW cleaves away from the holy bible.
I can't make you smarter... but eventually you'll understand.
something about proverbs...(paraphrased) "it is not wise to argue with fools..."
Yet, it is the seekers that have benefited from your argument Patrick. And for that, we thank you. Be encouraged!
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